This question was answered on Mon 08, Dec 2008 06:56pm by Dr Heinrik M, MD
E-Cadherin
Asked by shybird (Female; 53; Invasive Ductal Carcinoma
Stage IIA
Grade 3 w/ poorly differentiated cells.
E-Cadherin +
ER+
PR+
HER2-; Relevant drugs:CHEMO ) on Mon 08, Dec 2008 11:33am
In a recent question that I had sent, I was concerned about being E-Cadherin positive, due to some research saying that 50%
of breast cancer turns into mestastis, and that 80% turns into stomach cancer.
THE DOCTOR'S RESPONSE TO THAT WAS: E cadherin is an area of active research, at present it may help distinguish subtypes of
breast cancer (whether ductal or lobular). Specific impact on
overall outcomes beyond that known for ductal or lobular cancer is not well characterized.
Perhaps if you read the EXACT research notes, you could better explain to me what EACH (1 through 4) is actually saying in
layman's terms?
RESEARCH:
E-Cadherin Gene is known a the tumor supressor gene. These are the proteins for which they code.
They either have a DAMPENING or a REPRESSIVE effect on the regulation of the cell cycle, promote apoptosis, and sometimes do
both.
1.) REPRESSION of genes are essential for the continuing of the cell cycle. If these genes are not EXPRESSED the cell cycle
will not continue, effectively inhibiting cell division.
a.) What does 'expressed' mean?
b.) Are we trying to inhibit cell division?
2.) Coupling the cell cycle to DNA damage: As long as there is damaged DNA in the cell, it should not divide. If the
damage is repaired, the cell cycle can continue.
a.) Is the purpose of chemo to repair damage to DNA?
3.) If the damage cannot be repaired, the cell should initiate apoptosis (programmed cell death) to remove the threat it
poses for the greater good of the organism.
a.) How will one know if cells have apoptosised?
b.) This is wanted, correct?
4.) Some proteins involved in cell adhesion prevent tumor cells from DISPERSING, block the loss of contact inhibition, and
inhibit metastasis. These proteins are known as metastasis suppressors.
a.) What does 'dispersing' mean?
Dear shybird,
Let me re-post your query.
RESEARCH:
E-Cadherin Gene is known a the tumor supressor
gene. These are the proteins for which they code.
Comment: the evidence for the role of E-cadherin as a tumor suppressor is due to increased risk of metastasis in its absence. E-cadherin testing is not standard of care, hence it would be best to discuss this with your doctor or the pathologist who had it done. E cadherin positivity could therefore mean two things: that E-cadherin is present which would mean it is not absent. The other definition would be: mutant E-cadherin is positive. I will not pretend to know which (as the testing is not recommended in the first place, except in differentiating lobular from ductal cancer), however, I will hazard that since the negative outcome is associated with decreased or absent E-cadherin, then E-cadherin positive means low risk (in the same manner that the Estrogen receptor positive means low risk). Also loss of E-cadherin is seen in lobular cancer – and you have ductal – meaning you do not have cadherin loss.
Comment on E-cadherin risk:
The information I have is for cases of hereditary breast and gastric cancer. A study done in 1999 did not show any increased risk (Int J Radiat Oncol Biol Phys. 1999 Aug 1;45(1):73-83.) this was actually a small population with less than a hundred cases. I am unaware of any large prospective study in which patients with E-cadherin were followed up to look at how many developed breast or gastric cancer. The converse has been reported: among those with established HEREDITARY breast or gastric cancer, there seems to be an increased incidence of mutations in CDH1 (which encodes the E Cadherin protein). I would be very interested if you can share your research source.
They either have a
DAMPENING or a REPRESSIVE effect on the regulation of the cell cycle, promote
apoptosis, and sometimes do both.
Comment:
These metabolic pathways are not directly related to E-cadherin. There used to be a time when single pathways were deemed enough to understand development of cancer. It is now known that there are multiple pathways and interaction or cross-talk across these pathways. At most, there may be a relationship between E-cadherin and these proliferation/division or anti-death pathways.
Cadherins are cell adhesion proteins. Normally, cells respect the space of other cells, they do not try to invade or impinge. This is called contact inhibition. A cancer cell has lost this inhibition. Hence, the absence of normal cadherins would mean, the cell keeps growing despite the presence of normal cells blocking its way.
1.) REPRESSION of genes are essential for
the continuing of the cell cycle. If these genes are not EXPRESSED the cell
cycle will not continue, effectively inhibiting cell division.
a.) What
does 'expressed' mean?
b.) Are we trying to inhibit cell division?
Comment:
Genes encode proteins. Inhibitory proteins can stop the cell cycle (or cell division). Cell division would mean more cells. Cancer allows the cell cycle to continue and continue. The normal cell once it attains its function (such as the lining of a breast gland) will not need any further growth. Abnormal division should be stopped. There are certain cells that need to continue dividing – such as blood cells which are regularly replaced.
2.)
Coupling the cell cycle to DNA damage: As long as there is damaged DNA in the
cell, it should not divide. If the damage is repaired, the cell cycle can
continue.
a.) Is the purpose of chemo to repair damage to DNA?
Comment:
The purpose of chemo is to damage DNA, particularly the DNA that is actively being encoded. If the code is abberant and critical, the cell will undergo apoptosis or cell death. The idea is to inflict this critical damage.
3.)
If the damage cannot be repaired, the cell should initiate apoptosis (programmed
cell death) to remove the threat it poses for the greater good of the
organism.
a.) How will one know if cells have apoptosised?
b.)
This is wanted, correct?
Comment:
Apoptosis is desirable. This can only be documented in biopsies, which is not applicable to you (since you are post-surgery). Patients who have chemotherapy before surgery will have two specimens. The first specimen is the biopsy, the second is the specimen of the entire cancer. An analysis of the second specimen will show evidence if this occurred. This is not standard of care, but is done in research settings.
4.) Some proteins involved in cell adhesion
prevent tumor cells from DISPERSING, block the loss of contact inhibition, and
inhibit metastasis. These proteins are known as metastasis suppressors.
a.) What does 'dispersing' mean?
Comment:
Dispersing means to invade or to metastasize. The cadherins maintain the integrity of the cell.
Final comments:
The reason I mentioned that E-cadherin is an area of active research is because all of these are still lacking applications.
There is no drug specific for those who are E-cadherin positive or negative. A class of drugs meant to stop invasion is too toxic – so we don’t expect any breakthroughs in this respect any time soon.
There is no drug combination known to improve outcomes for patients with this marker.
Will knowing the status of E-cadherin make a difference in the management scheme? ER PR HER2 have specific guides. E-cadherin, no.
Please rate my answer (select the stars, no need to log in.)
Comments:
Comment by shybird on Tue 09, Dec 2008 12:53am:
Dear Dr. Heinrick,
If I could have given you more than 5* I would have, because you definately earned it one this one. Thank
you.
This is my third time writing this 'comment'. I had the research site that I went to about the
E-cadherin gene, but it was not permitted in this format, so it erased everything.
So Apoptosis is what we are aiming for, and it can only be known through biopsies.
Yes, I did have the lumpectomy before starting my chemo. After reading my pathology report, and following up
with research, has given me more time and thought into doing the bilateral mastectomies with reconstruction
instead of the radiation.
I do hope that I am biopsied with the tissue that is removed from the surgery, but I imagine that is a given.
1.) The surgeon removed 30% of extensice DCIS. I feel that if my body produced DCIS once, it can do it
again.
2.) The clear margin was not as large as my oncologist is comfortable with. She prefers a 2, and mine was
1.6
3.) 1/3 of ER+ experience either a local or distant recurrence more than 5 years after surgery.
4.) Breast Conserving Surgery has a higher long term risk of local recurrence than those with mastectomies.
So I feel that if I can reduce the percentage greatly in the local area, that I am doing myself a favor.
I have a long road ahead of me that is very fearful, and that is why I want to know everything about this.
Many regards, and thank you for bearing through this with me.
Comment by Dr Heinrik M, MD on Mon 19, Jan 2009 09:05am:
The DCIS raises the risk of subsequent cancer, and hence removing it is recommended. DCIS with comedo necrosis
is a precursor for subsequent invasive disease. The most we can say is that the same breast may also produce
another DCIS, hence additional therapy (beyond excision) may be the way to go if the breast is conserved.
Another question is that your breast produced invasive disease, so does it mean that the other breast is
automatically at risk? At present, a breast MRI is the most sensitive test to find early breast disease, and
patients who have a personal history of breast cancer are not necessarily candidates for screening (meaning
the risk isn’t high enough).
More than 1 cm is generally considered adequate, less than 1 mm inadequate. Hence the 1.6 doesn’t seem
particularly alarming.
If there is doubt as to the margin adequacy, then the mastectomy may be the better option. Some women would
also choose this because they feel safer. Making comments on local recurrence is a bit difficult – it is all
about patient selection. Candidates without a contraindication to conservation will do equally well with
breast conservation (with subsequent radiation) or mastectomy.
The ER + cases do tend to recur beyond the 5 year mark. Hence, 10 year estimates may be better suited to
determine how large the benefit for a given adjunctive therapy can provide.
This question is open for comments. Please share your opinion.
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